Jakuri/Croix: How would it end?

[Ayulsa]

And then he being a main Hero here has indeed no meaning, and her handing the Harmonius to the first human she finds acceptable to dive into her starts making sense: It was supposed to be an attempt to start things over and communicate with humans once again, and for that reason any decent specimen would do :)

Yes, exactly. Framed like this, her early Cosmosphere makes much more sense. The problem was that she made herself too vulnerable: the thoughts and feelings of the Diver can change a lot about a Cosmosphere, and by letting him in even to show him something completely unrelated to romance, that was more about forging a peace pact, she unwittingly allowed herself to be confused by his feelings into thinking she might have feelings for him.

In short, everything from Level 6 onward... was genuine in the sense that she suffered from those problems, but the romance part of it was something that Croix's own feelings caused to be there. His feelings of love for her while inside her mind confused her into thinking she had those emotions.

...Now I feel like AT2 just made 100 times more sense. Thank you, Deci and d_c (hehe, those almost sound like the same word. XD)

...
...This also means that when they do break up, it'll probably be an even more spectacular blowout.

[aquagon]

Sorry, but involving Wave Theory here to justify that their relationship is from unlikely to impossible is pushing it. By saying that any feeling of love that Mir could have developed for Croix is only the result of her being confused by his feelings (aka: H-Waves) is basically the same thing as saying that any feelings that Cloche and Luca could have developed for Croix, or in Ar tonelico 1, the feelings that Misha and Aurica developed (or got deeper) for Lyner are only the result of confusion because of the interaction between their H-Waves.

If we get to the core of the matter, H-Wave interaction happens all the time in the real world: when talking to other people say, listening to music, watching a painting... even something as simple as seeing the facial expressions of other people is H-Wave interaction. So, also building a relationship in the real world would be seen then as only a result of confusion that steems from the interaction of feelings, is we are going to analyze the situation under that paradigm.

[Deciare]

Even without using Wave Theory as part of the justification, though, the story in Jakuri's Cosmosphere clearly shows that Croix was the first one to take a romantic interest in being coupled with her. She did express her regrets about Croix's affection toward her until the end. I don't believe she ever admitted to liking him back in the first 5 levels; it was just implied. Croix, as the viewpoint character, has the capacity to affect the reader's understanding of a situation by colouring events with his own perspective. Even if Croix's feelings did not directly confuse Jakuri's, then, they still did confuse the audience.

If we get to the core of the matter, H-Wave interaction happens all the time in the real world: when talking to other people say, listening to music, watching a painting... even something as simple as seeing the facial expressions of other people is H-Wave interaction. So, also building a relationship in the real world would be seen then as only a result of confusion that steems from the interaction of feelings, is we are going to analyze the situation under that paradigm.

That was a lovely reminder of something I hadn't specifically thought about in a while. ^_^ An artist's feelings are woven into the work they create; not only those specifically related to the work, but the passing tangents and context of the artist's life and wishes, as well. I have appreciated this concept ever since I understood Was yea ra chs hymmnos mea. To become to song, to be that which you create, and to spare nothing.

It's difficult to separate what is appropriate and should be communicated from what is inappropriate and should remain unstated... I spend far too much of my time doing that even though I already know what I wish to convey. If the pressure of saying only what is relevant and appropriate would let up just a little... I wonder if we'd all be better orators and writers if we didn't have to worry about what not to convey.

[Ayulsa]

Hmm, but the point of a Cosmosphere, though, is that H-Waves affect the Reyvateils much, much more strongly in the Cosmosphere than they do in the physical world. That's why Cosmospheres are (usually) needed to craft Song Magic, to solve deep emotional issues, etc., when simply talking just won't do: the Diver's presence within the mind has very strong effects. The Diver is influencing and communicating with the Reyvateil's subconscious directly, without having to get past her conscious thought processes.

Imagine if someone has direct access to your subconscious mind, your deep thoughts, via a machine, and says to you, "hey, you'd like a cheeseburger, wouldn't you?" You're going to be much more likely to want a cheeseburger, to even maybe be confused over whether you or the other person had the idea, than if someone just says to you in the physical world, "hey, you'd like a cheeseburger, wouldn't you?"

This may very well mean that Cloche and Luca were influenced on their paths to love who they loved. It could very well mean Misha and Aurica were influenced on theirs. After all, it's a dating sim. In a sense, they are being influenced by you, the player. The question of how genuine those relationships are is something to be resolved, and ideally, begun in the physical world. Ideally, a Diver should regularly check up with a Reyvateil in the physical world to make sure she is secure in her feelings and that the Diver is not biasing her too much with his or her own thoughts. That would seem to make sense, since Diving is basically, to an extent and with the Reyvateil's cooperation, mind-editing. There's no question in my mind that a Diver who sought to use this to manipulate a Reyvateil could do so, and that she might even be manipulated unconsciously by someone who just didn't know the power their thoughts and feelings had.

A relationship built through Diving can be genuine. But I think because of how vulnerable a Reyvateil is when a Diver is in her Cosmosphere, a relationship that's built only on Cosmosphere interactions may be hard to trust.

If we get to the core of the matter, H-Wave interaction happens all the time in the real world: when talking to other people say, listening to music, watching a painting... even something as simple as seeing the facial expressions of other people is H-Wave interaction. So, also building a relationship in the real world would be seen then as only a result of confusion that steems from the interaction of feelings, is we are going to analyze the situation under that paradigm.

That was a lovely reminder of something I hadn't specifically thought about in a while. ^_^ An artist's feelings are woven into the work they create; not only those specifically related to the work, but the passing tangents and context of the artist's life and wishes, as well. I have appreciated this concept ever since I understood Was yea ra chs hymmnos mea. To become to song, to be that which you create, and to spare nothing.

It's difficult to separate what is appropriate and should be communicated from what is inappropriate and should remain unstated... I spend far too much of my time doing that even though I already know what I wish to convey. If the pressure of saying only what is relevant and appropriate would let up just a little... I wonder if we'd all be better orators and writers if we didn't have to worry about what not to convey.

I liked this. I didn't know what else to say about it, but I wanted to re-quote it, if for no other reason than I didn't want this beautiful discussion to get buried in my debating. This kind of thing is something we should all reflect on more.

[dervish_candela]

Now I feel like AT2 just made 100 times more sense. Thank you, Deci and d_c

We have to thank Deci, I just re-formulated a little. I share your sentiment, however, I can't help but feel that we're over-guessing with this hypothesis

If we get to the core of the matter, H-Wave interaction happens all the time in the real world: when talking to other people say, listening to music, watching a painting... even something as simple as seeing the facial expressions of other people is H-Wave interaction. So, also building a relationship in the real world would be seen then as only a result of confusion that steems from the interaction of feelings, is we are going to analyze the situation under that paradigm.

This reminded me of Orson Scott Card's recurring concept of those meta-entities which gave life to people and intertwined when people interacted
And the 'confucion' theme, when taken to extreme, indeed does result in what you described (since AT puts equality sign between people's thoughts and feeligns, and the local laws of physics:)

That was a lovely reminder of something I hadn't specifically thought about in a while. ^_^ An artist's feelings are woven into the work they create; not only those specifically related to the work, but the passing tangents and context of the artist's life and wishes, as well. I have appreciated this concept ever since I understood Was yea ra chs hymmnos mea. To become to song, to be that which you create, and to spare nothing.

It's difficult to separate what is appropriate and should be communicated from what is inappropriate and should remain unstated... I spend far too much of my time doing that even though I already know what I wish to convey. If the pressure of saying only what is relevant and appropriate would let up just a little... I wonder if we'd all be better orators and writers if we didn't have to worry about what not to convey.

QFT. A beautiful passage indeed. (Although I prefer «Wee yea ra crannidale yora» for the sake of those of us who can't sing).
I once used to think that phrases like «artist's feelings are woven into the work they create» were just metaphors, fancy sayngs, but once, when I was reading Sei Shonagon's «Pillow Book», I suddenly realised that it was literal. As a reviewer puts it, «...reminds us all of our humanity, regardless of our time, culture, or language. She complains. She gloats. She finds fault with others. And when she does, the millennium separating her from us vanishes...». If a nameless lady in waiting who lived a thousand years ago, even for a split second, can make us think, imagine and feel the same things she felt a few aeons before we were born, then she is alive, here, right now. Maybe it was not all just metaphoric after all.

Although I doubt we'd all become genius orators and writers all of a sudden if the pressure is lifted. I've been to anonymous boards where people communicate the inappropriate and state the unstateable on regular basis, and it doesn't even remotely look like a place where great orators gather (I know you didn't mean it like that, but still I think it's our interaction with those limits that makes us grow, not focus on ridding of them).

[Morganite]

Semi-random thoughts...

I always thought that in her early life, Jakuri didn't just *want* to love and trust humans, there were humans she loved and trusted. (And reyvateils, for that matter.) I see the driving emotion behind a lot of how she acts in AT2 as guilt, not anger. She's lost control and hurt people she loved before, she's afraid she could do it again. I don't think that's something that would just *not be there* if she were in a relationship with a reyvateil. But I certainly think she's selling herself short.

Ideally, a Diver should regularly check up with a Reyvateil in the physical world to make sure she is secure in her feelings and that the Diver is not biasing her too much with his or her own thoughts.

Seems like that's part of the effect of having things divided into levels. A forced break until everyone's sure they're ready to continue.

(I'd kind of expect that repeatedly diving and exiting within a single session could actually be dangerous to everyone involved...)

Personally, I think I prefer the idea of of the Cosmosphere simply being an environment that's more conducive to focusing on a problem rather than an environment where a reyvateil is more susceptible to influence. Partly because it makes more sense to me, and partly because the latter is really creepy.

-Morgan.

[aquagon]

And let me add that seeing the Cosmospheres as only a field for manipulating emotions and personality, instead of a place to solve inner conflicts and bring a Reyvateil and her partner closer, falls into the category of seeing the Reyvateils under an utilitarian viewpoint, which I think is something that many here despise (myself included).

[Ayulsa]

Oh, certainly.... I never said it was a good thing to think of it that way. Not at all. Only that people can treat it that way if they have a sufficiently manipulative mindset, and it's possible that emotions may also be manipulated inside the Cosmosphere by accident. If you think about how often people influence each other unintentionally, in the physical world, just through their expressions of their feelings-- imagine how much more powerful that could be inside someone's mind.

It all points to the idea that if you're inside someone's consciousness/soulspace, you should tread very gently and treat them very carefully, because they are vulnerable. I think we can all agree on that.

[Morganite]

I'm actually quite disturbed by the idea of it being able to function like that.

If I viewed it as being possible to deliberately manipulate a reyvateil's mental and emotional state via diving in such a way, it'd bother me enough that I couldn't really enjoy the cosmosphere parts of the games at all.

So I don't think I'm going to view it that way.

-Morgan.

[dervish_candela]

And let me add that seeing the Cosmospheres as only a field for manipulating emotions and personality, instead of a place to solve inner conflicts and bring a Reyvateil and her partner closer

Isn't this exactly the description for what dive therapy does? I think treating Cosmosphere in objective way doesn't mean anything bad, it's the goals and intentions that matter.

something that many here despise

We don't need to depise opinions, as long as no manipulation actually happens. For example, I wouldn't despise doctors just because some of them would treat me as a biochemical system with no identity; and to the contrary, I know people who even prefer being treated by doctors in such way, arguing that this is professional behavior...

[Morganite]

(This is getting a bit off topic, isn't it?)

And let me add that seeing the Cosmospheres as only a field for manipulating emotions and personality, instead of a place to solve inner conflicts and bring a Reyvateil and her partner closer

Isn't this exactly the description for what dive therapy does? I think treating Cosmosphere in objective way doesn't mean anything bad, it's the goals and intentions that matter.

I'm not sure "objective" has anything to do with it. It's more like, is the Cosmosphere a place to help someone out by giving them a nudge here and there to help them deal with a problem they haven't been able to handle on their own, or is it a place where you can rewrite their mind to suit your own desires?

I don't have any problem finding the latter attitude loathsome. (It's really quite Bourd-like.) But I'm also pretty bothered by the idea of it even being possible.

-Morgan.

[Deciare]

I always thought that in her early life, Jakuri didn't just *want* to love and trust humans, there were humans she loved and trusted. (And reyvateils, for that matter.)

My thought was that Jakuri was not allowed to meet with anyone except for the people for who worked on her. I'm fairly confident that At1 mentions something about confinement in a scene at the Silver Horn, and the humans mentioned on level 7-C of her At2 Cosmosphere didn't seem very lovable... So as much as I wish she did have an opportunity to feel some of the hope and love she wanted to bring into the world, she might not have.

I see the driving emotion behind a lot of how she acts in AT2 as guilt, not anger. She's lost control and hurt people she loved before, she's afraid she could do it again.

Yes, it appears so. The threats she made weren't all the way malicious... She also meant to avoid doing any more harm than she already had.

I don't think that's something that would just *not be there* if she were in a relationship with a reyvateil. But I certainly think she's selling herself short.

Hmm, I don't think we ever meant to imply that guilt would simply not be a factor in a relationship between Jakuri and another Reyvateil. She'd probably be less concerned about hurting a Reyvateil out of fear or intolerance, but given her history of violence and extremely radical actions, I think she would have to accept that the capacity to hurt people seriously is in her, so any partner of hers becomes a potential recipient of that risk.

Whether Jakuri's partner is human or Reyvateil, they would have to convince her that "I won't be hurt by you" before she could truly be at ease with them. A human would have the additional task of convincing her that "we won't turn against each other", though, and that may be considerably more difficult.

Seems like that's part of the effect of having things divided into levels. A forced break until everyone's sure they're ready to continue.

That a practical way of looking at it. *nods*

(I'd kind of expect that repeatedly diving and exiting within a single session could actually be dangerous to everyone involved...)

(Thankfully, the Cosmosphere entry animation plays only once per level, so people who love seeing it/deciphering all the Hymmnos in it/looking for the perfect screenshot won't have an incentive to do it over and over.)

Personally, I think I prefer the idea of of the Cosmosphere simply being an environment that's more conducive to focusing on a problem rather than an environment where a reyvateil is more susceptible to influence. Partly because it makes more sense to me, and partly because the latter is really creepy.

It's not creepy to me~ Some kinds of influence are most interesting when felt on that level.

[Eijigawa]

This how it would end~degozaru.

Scenario: What happened after Chroah followed Jakuri back to Sol Ciel



In the same time, requesting translation~degozaru.

[Morganite]

My thought was that Jakuri was not allowed to meet with anyone except for the people for who worked on her. I'm fairly confident that At1 mentions something about confinement in a scene at the Silver Horn, and the humans mentioned on level 7-C of her At2 Cosmosphere didn't seem very lovable... So as much as I wish she did have an opportunity to feel some of the hope and love she wanted to bring into the world, she might not have.

Oh, certainly those people didn't. But I kind of got the impression that there was a period *before* being confined in the Silver Horn that she was in a more... sane?... sort of situation. I can't really point to why, but it feels like there's things that don't make sense otherwise.

Hmm, I don't think we ever meant to imply that guilt would simply not be a factor in a relationship between Jakuri and another Reyvateil. She'd probably be less concerned about hurting a Reyvateil out of fear or intolerance, but given her history of violence and extremely radical actions, I think she would have to accept that the capacity to hurt people seriously is in her, so any partner of hers becomes a potential recipient of that risk.

Whether Jakuri's partner is human or Reyvateil, they would have to convince her that "I won't be hurt by you" before she could truly be at ease with them. A human would have the additional task of convincing her that "we won't turn against each other", though, and that may be considerably more difficult.

I sort of interpreted it as being more of a worry that she'd just flat-out go berserk and be a threat to anyone close to her. I don't think Reyvateils would be seen as any less at risk; if you think about it, she's probably already responsible for more Reyvateil deaths than any individual in history.

Finding someone who "I won't be hurt by you" would be true for would be a pretty tall order. After all, she's quite powerful in her own right, and would probably have total surprise. And even then, doesn't it lead to a pretty screwed up scenario still? Just because there wasn't physical hurt doesn't mean the emotional damage wouldn't be major. So I don't think that would make a partnership any more likely to work out, it'd just give her a different reason for avoiding it.

Now, like I (think I) said, I don't think Jakuri's going to go berserk on anyone. What I think someone would really need to be Jakuri's partner is to trust her not to try to hurt them, and to convey those feelings to her in a way that she believes them. I think all three of the people I like pairing Jakuri with have indicated that in one way or another.

(Although, while I was at work tonight, I thought of someone who probably *could* survive Jakuri's unbridled wrath, and has enough commonalities of situation to possibly be interesting...

Flandre Scarlet. `.` )

It's not creepy to me~ Some kinds of influence are most interesting when felt on that level.

I suppose we're probably imagining something rather different in magnitude then. Because if it were like what I'm thinking of, I'd consider diving for any non-critical (lives at stake, etc.) purpose to be unethical.

-Morgan.

[Ayulsa]

I think all three of the people I like pairing Jakuri with have indicated that in one way or another.

Do those people include Deci? Because she's survived me pretty well thus far....

(Although, while I was at work tonight, I thought of someone who probably *could* survive Jakuri's unbridled wrath, and has enough commonalities of situation to possibly be interesting...

Flandre Scarlet. `.` )

*looks her up* ...I don't know. She'd probably survive, but wouldn't they just end up either taking over the world together or destroying it? XD

[Morganite]

Do those people include Deci? Because she's survived me pretty well thus far....

Forum members are beyond the scope of my activities. `.`

*looks her up* ...I don't know. She'd probably survive, but wouldn't they just end up either taking over the world together or destroying it? XD

That depends, I suppose. In a lot of fanwork, she's trying to be a more social creature.

-Morgan.

[Ayulsa]

Forum members are beyond the scope of my activities. `.`

[quote="Ayulsa"] I take it you're not an RPS fan, then. Pity.

So, might I ask who you actually do pair me with? Sheerly out of curiosity.

[Morganite]

RPS just feels too weird to me. And the stuff I've seen about it on fanficrants is scary.

In alphabetical order... Croix, Shurelia, and Spica.

Not necessarily all at the same time. `.`

-Morgan.

[Deciare]

Oh, certainly those people didn't. But I kind of got the impression that there was a period *before* being confined in the Silver Horn that she was in a more... sane?... sort of situation. I can't really point to why, but it feels like there's things that don't make sense otherwise.

Out of curiosity, what kinds of things would not make sense to you if Jakuri had never been in a genuinely loving relationship?

I don't think canon is very clear about where and what circumstances she was born into, and exactly what kind of life she led prior to being transferred to the Silver Horn, but given that early Betas appear to have been created solely for the purposes of research and weaponisation, I don't imagine it could have been too pleasant. It seems to me that at least some of them would not have had any kind of life outside of a lab environment.

I sort of interpreted it as being more of a worry that she'd just flat-out go berserk and be a threat to anyone close to her. [...] Finding someone who "I won't be hurt by you" would be true for would be a pretty tall order. After all, she's quite powerful in her own right, and would probably have total surprise. And even then, doesn't it lead to a pretty screwed up scenario still? Just because there wasn't physical hurt doesn't mean the emotional damage wouldn't be major.

That is what I meant by "I won't be hurt by you". I meant that I will not be physically harmed, I will not be emotionally scarred, I will not lose my capacity to believe, and my commitment to inner peace will not weaken. Part of that involves trusting Mir not to hurt me, of course, but a greater part of it is the firm belief that she cannot exert any ultimately negative influence on me, even if she is rough and unpredictable. It's an expression of willingness to take what she might not be able to help but dish out, and an affirmation that it's okay, that she'll still be trusted and loved afterward, and that I won't change for the worse because of it.

Anyone who wishes to have a happy, mutually beneficial relationship with Mir should be able to satisfy this basic requirement. Physical safety is only one qualification amongst many, and that one may be met in multiple ways; if not in actual physical immunity, then the ability to recover or the ability to endure wounds that will never heal, and be no worse off for it.

Humans are more likely to be directly assaulted by Mir, however, because she may do so out of fear or intolerance in addition to any other reason she may have for going berserk on a Reyvateil partner.

I suppose we're probably imagining something rather different in magnitude then. Because if it were like what I'm thinking of, I'd consider diving for any non-critical (lives at stake, etc.) purpose to be unethical.

I suppose that depends on how much you trust your Dive partner to only do things that you have consented to.

[DarkCalibur]

This how it would end~degozaru.

Scenario: What happened after Chroah followed Jakuri back to Sol Ciel



In the same time, requesting translation~degozaru.

(wow...Croix looks cute)
I'm thinking the girls were shocked Mir has a partner